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TV & Film Star Wars Episode 7

Capstan

Fleur-de-Lis
STAR
THE FORCE PUTS ME TO SLEEP

BORES


EPISODE VII

It is a time of corporate greed. Offered by
Disney as a trickle-down trinket to the Unwashed
Masses, Luke Skywalker and Princess What's-Her
-Name are called on again to glamorize warfare and
make it look like a whole lot of fun.... Yeccck!

:)

 
Last edited:
Now I keep reading online reviews from fans who didn't like the film! It reminds me of Comic Book Guy in The Simpsons "Worst Cosmic Wars ever! I will only see it three more times. Today.":p

Some **** posted the whole storyline without spoilers on a British forum so I am probably waiting to see it until it comes on TV. Hopefully I would have forgotten by then.:D
 

Indian Summer

Cult Leader
Administrator
Just back from the cinema! I thought it was quite alright, better than the prequels. The main characters were quite alright as well. The music was completely over the top, and there were too many explosions. (That is probably a criticism which applies to most Hollywood action movies these days.)
 

FortyTwo

Custom Title
It was incredibly f*cking good.

I challenge anyone to bring up any actual problem with it that isn't a super petty nitpick.
 

Andy_T

Addicted Poster
Forum Moderator
Will see it tomorrow with my family and some friends :)

We have actually spent the evenings of the last days watching episodes 1-6 to get into the mood.
(Our friends started with 1, we, being more traditionalist, started with 4 and initially considered skipping 1-3, but then also ended up watching 1-3 so we don't get bored until we can go to the movie together)
 

Andy_T

Addicted Poster
Forum Moderator
I challenge anyone to bring up any actual problem with it that isn't a super petty nitpick.
Not having seen 7 yet, are nitpicks from 1-6 acceptable?

(I have one after watching episode 3 today ... seeing that the emperor and Darth Vader were looking at the beginning of the death star construction at the end of episode 3 ... so it took them, what, 19 years, to build the first death star, but only 4 for the second? That's quite a steep learning curve...)
 

FortyTwo

Custom Title
Not having seen 7 yet, are nitpicks from 1-6 acceptable?

(I have one after watching episode 3 today ... seeing that the emperor and Darth Vader were looking at the beginning of the death star construction at the end of episode 3 ... so it took them, what, 19 years, to build the first death star, but only 4 for the second? That's quite a steep learning curve...)
Absolutely. Nitpick the hell out of those, and especially nitpick the prequel trash.

But aside from "maybe the characterization could have been fleshed out a bit better at the beginning" I haven't yet seen any criticism of 7 that isn't a nitpick.
 
J

Jeremy

Guest
Absolutely. Nitpick the hell out of those, and especially nitpick the prequel trash.

But aside from "maybe the characterization could have been fleshed out a bit better at the beginning" I haven't yet seen any criticism of 7 that isn't a nitpick.
Funniest criticism I've seen so far was "Ugh so disappointed. It's Return of the Jedi all over again!". That "criticism" just makes me more excited about seeing it lol.
 

Andy_T

Addicted Poster
Forum Moderator
I agree with @beancounter , those discussions bring up valid points.

For me, the unclear political situation was the biggest loophole. I mean, the rebels WON in the Battle of Endor, and the Galactic Republic was re-established. So how come that 30 years later, the Galactic republic and senate are still existing, but the rebels are insurgents again and the First Order has taken over the stormtroopers? That would at least warrant some explanations...

And not only that, the First Order under their "Supreme Master" (obviously another Sith lord nobody had ever heard about before) also manages to construct a new Death Star (well, Death Planet) that is much bigger than the old one. How did they raise the funds for that, if the Galactic empire had all the ressources of the whole empire before and took some time to construct the original 2 Death Stars. (And, did they not learn anything from the original 2 Death Stars? Putting a "Destroy me here" button right in the middle of it that can be pushed by 10 measly X-wing-fighters... yawn)

And yes, from the moment that Rey realized that she was "strong in the force", it took her about 20 minutes to master Jedi Mind Control and superior lightsaber fighting proficiency. Indeed, it is possible that this is solved in Episode 8,9 or 13 in the way that Rey is actually Luke or Leias missing daughter that was not killed by Kylo Ren when he killed the other New Jedi Younglings, but rather just mind-wiped (but then how did she get to Jakku?) ... and so on.

Also, there is a whole "Extended Universe" out there with Star Wars books (some written by mediocre hacks, others by rather talented authors) that tries to explain what happened after the Battle of Endor. The Fight between the remnants of the Galactic Empire (e.g. under the new leader Thrawn) and the New Republic, Han and Leia having 3 children, Luke marrying Mara Jade and having a son, and so on ...

However, it seems that Disney wanted to not just put any of those stories to a movie, but they rather wanted to come up with an alternative version, the elder stories be damned. :-(

So yeah, it was a nice action flick, but it did not convince me.
 
J

Jeremy

Guest
I agree with @beancounter , those discussions bring up valid points.

For me, the unclear political situation was the biggest loophole. I mean, the rebels WON in the Battle of Endor, and the Galactic Republic was re-established. So how come that 30 years later, the Galactic republic and senate are still existing, but the rebels are insurgents again and the First Order has taken over the stormtroopers? That would at least warrant some explanations...

And not only that, the First Order under their "Supreme Master" (obviously another Sith lord nobody had ever heard about before) also manages to construct a new Death Star (well, Death Planet) that is much bigger than the old one. How did they raise the funds for that, if the Galactic empire had all the ressources of the whole empire before and took some time to construct the original 2 Death Stars. (And, did they not learn anything from the original 2 Death Stars? Putting a "Destroy me here" button right in the middle of it that can be pushed by 10 measly X-wing-fighters... yawn)

And yes, from the moment that Rey realized that she was "strong in the force", it took her about 20 minutes to master Jedi Mind Control and superior lightsaber fighting proficiency. Indeed, it is possible that this is solved in Episode 8,9 or 13 in the way that Rey is actually Luke or Leias missing daughter that was not killed by Kylo Ren when he killed the other New Jedi Younglings, but rather just mind-wiped (but then how did she get to Jakku?) ... and so on.

Also, there is a whole "Extended Universe" out there with Star Wars books (some written by mediocre hacks, others by rather talented authors) that tries to explain what happened after the Battle of Endor. The Fight between the remnants of the Galactic Empire (e.g. under the new leader Thrawn) and the New Republic, Han and Leia having 3 children, Luke marrying Mara Jade and having a son, and so on ...

However, it seems that Disney wanted to not just put any of those stories to a movie, but they rather wanted to come up with an alternative version, the elder stories be damned. :-(

So yeah, it was a nice action flick, but it did not convince me.
Star Wars movie plots always get rehashed. That's just how it's been going from A New Hope, into The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi and so on, and this one is no different; and that's fine really. It was pretty much exactly what I expected it to be.

I'm actually glad that they kept most of the events of the last 30+ years a mystery. I think had they touched more on those stories it would have felt pretty fragmented and spread thin. I understand where you're coming from, I just can't imagine how it could be executed in satisfactory way. That time gap is best left mostly to the imagination in my opinion.
 

Tom

Addicted Poster
GOOD sci-fi can be hard to come by, in books and it seems especially in movies or television. I haven't made up my mind whether I'll see TFA in theaters or wait until it comes to DVD, but I was kind of hoping that
events which transpired in the books, which take place after ROTJ, would be incorporated in the movies- at least some of them. Mara Jade Skywalker was an interesting character, and so were Han and Leia's family- although I was surprised that evidently one of their sons goes to the dark side...
 

Andy_T

Addicted Poster
Forum Moderator
Tom, unless you don't mind reading the spoilers here before you see the movies (which might spoil some of the fun), you might just have to go out now and watch is so you are able to follow the discussion :)
 

FortyTwo

Custom Title
Let's go!

The biggest problems I had with the Star wars prequels are all of the plotholes
Okay, already a problem with this one. I mean, yes, the prequels have MASSIVE plot holes. But the original trilogy does too. Some REALLY bad ones. The original movies are absolutely riddled with plot holes, repetitive tropes, deus ex machinas, and some downright lazy solutions to problems. (Take the entirety of Endor.) And yet, they're widely considered to be cinematic masterpieces. They're incredibly fun to watch, even with all their issues. Why? Because their storytelling is spot on. We really feel for the characters, we can follow the plot, we get invested. The prequels, on the other hand, have godawful storytelling. Characters cooperate for seemingly no reason other than "the plot says so," the focus is on all the wrong areas ("politics" which don't even make much sense rather than the suspenseful, character-heavy action sequences the originals did so well), the story balances all its weight on characters the audience doesn't care about (Jar Jar Binks, Jango Fett and young Boba [which, let's be honest, even the people who have this bizarre obsession with Boba Fett want to see him being a bounty hunter, not a first grader]) and discards characters they do care about without a second thought (Darth Maul could have been a great villain but he's dead before the first prequel is even through).

So. That's three good movies with huge plot holes, and three terrible movies with huge plot holes. Plot isn't everything, hell, it's not even the bulk of what makes a story good.

The republic forms the resistance to combat the first order. But why? Can't the republic just fight the order as the republic? And speaking of the republic, how does it even work? Is General Leia in control of it? Is it a democracy? And what about the first order? How powerful is this new empire?
All fair gripes, I guess, if you went into the film expecting and wanting a political drama. For the vast majority of viewers, including my nitpicky ass, the information given was absolutely good enough. There's a republic with a segment dedicated to resisting corruption, a sort of homeland security. Leia holds some authority position there. There's a follow-up to the Empire hell-bent on finishing what it started. It obviously has some competency if it can build something like Starkiller Base. That tells us everything we need to know for a good story, we don't need a damn political hierarchy chart. If you want that, go watch West Wing or something. There are lots of resources you can use to read about the United States government and its structure. As for Star Wars, it is about wars in the stars, and if we have enough information to figure out who's who and what side people are on, that's good enough for me, and it's obviously good enough for most people watching due to the hugely positive reception this film has been getting.

How do the politics in this world work? At least during the star wars prequels I understood the context in which all of the fighting was taking place. In this one I have no real clue.
Oh, bullshit. The political system in the prequels was inconsistent garbage made up on the fly. You can coerce someone into signing a treaty to make the invasion of their home planet legal? How the hell is that supposed to make any sense in something that's supposed to be a democracy? There's more - oh so much more - but it'd take way too long to go through it. If you think this is a poorly-done political system I invite you to sit through the prequels again. Seriously, actually pay attention. It makes very little sense.

Rey takes a giant dump on everything we know about the force by becoming a super powerful jedi that can fly spaceships and beat someone in a lightsaber duel with no prior training and experience whatsoever. It appears that now being a good jedi has nothing to do with personal skill, just having the force turns you into superman! It took Luke Skywalker 3 movies to defeat Darth Vader, but Rey defeats Kylo in her first fight and nearly kills him. But then again, Kylo isn't actually as big a badass as Darth Vader, brings brings us to the next point...
Someone is mad that a girl can do things. Blah blah, we get it. It would have been nice to have some kind of indication she was so powerful with the Force from the beginning, but her case is not that bizarre, given that we just saw Kylo Ren, who hasn't even had any kind of intense training (which is made clear by the fact that Snoke only decides he's ready for training at the end of the film), stop a laser headed straight at him in damn mid-air and hold it there without concentrating much. And Kylo Ren is pretty pathetic, as this person brings up! I do generally agree that each of the main trio should have received a bit more characterization at the beginning. But that's only an issue because the film got started a bit too quickly for its own good. It has nothing to do with Rey's powers, which are pretty badass and I've seen mainly criticized by misogynists at this point.

The new bad guy is pathetic. The actor playing him looks completely out of place and doesn't fit this role at all. He looks like he belongs in a teenage comedy. The actual character also acts more like a spoiled and a whiny brat rather than as an actual badass. The moment he took of his mask I could no longer take him seriously.
Hey, nice job missing the point! Kylo Ren takes his mask off for precisely that reason. It destroys the illusion of him being competent and professional. He's obsessed with Darth Vader, he puts that stupid mask on even though he doesn't need it in the slightest, just because he thinks it looks cool. Yes, Kylo Ren is a brat. Yes, his characterization to that effect is totally intentional. He's whiny, he probably shops at space Hot Topic, and he's exactly the kind of person who would go on a rant on the internet about how much he hated the new Star Wars movie, so...

Lots of pointless fan service. For no reason.
Lots of great fan service! For the reason that it's Star Wars! Seriously, you want pointless fan service, go look at the prequels. R2-D2 gets an award for fixing the ship! Anakin built C3-PO! Chewbacca does things! Look, Yoda even calls him Chewbacca! We acknowledge things exist and actually twist the plot around to make sure we get the opportunity to reference everything! On the other hand, the fan service in this was pretty well done. Little things here and there. The attack orb (I'm forgetting what it's called, I guess I'm not a true fan, forgive me) from Episode IV briefly appears, the Mouse Droids in the background of the ship in Jakku orbit, everything Han Solo says. It actually makes sense in context! Here's a relevant image:



In fact, that applies to the vast majority of criticisms here. Get that stick out of your ass! It's Star Wars! Have fun!

The Starkiller base is extremely stupid. They could not come up with an original threat so they just created a new version of the Death star that is like 100x bigger (because the old death star was so small right?). In the original movies, the construction of the death star was hailed as a massive accomplishment.
A massive accomplishment that took like 20 years, right? When they had to build an entire framework for the thing? And didn't already have an entire planet and a power source and thirty years? In a universe where FTL spaceships with artificial gravity are commonplace, to the point where such a device in working order could consistently be considered trash? Come on, folks.

And that was in-spite of the fact that the empire had a whole galaxy worth of resources to build it with. How was the first order which is suppose to be merely a shadow of the old empire able to build something that is dozens of times bigger than the death star? This is a giant plothole so obvious it's painful.
Plot holes! Yup, that could be considered a plot hole, I guess, even though, y'know, the things I just said about technology, but let's go with it. Here are some other plot holes! How come Phasma, who apparently doesn't even rank as high as Ren and Hux, can disable every shield on the entire Starkiller Base from apparently any terminal on the entire planet? Poe obviously wanted desperately to find BB-8, how come he didn't go looking for him on Jakku when he was there, leaving that to Finn instead? How come Phasma sent Finn to the reconditioning he was clearly supposed to have with such little supervision that he could sneak off with a high-profile prisoner aboard a TIE-fighter in a heavily patrolled area? And I loved the film! It's almost like plot isn't everything.

Here's another, this time from the original trilogy: how come Luke's training on Dagobah seemed to take a damn long time while less than a day passed for Han and Leia? Who, by the way, were not traveling at relativistic speeds their entire time away? Also how relativity and physics in general doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone ever in this series?

Those are great movies. With massive plot holes. This is another.

Oh! And it appears that they learned NOTHING from the first 2 death stars, because of course the good guys just need to destroy a single weak spot to kill it. Because screw being creative.
I'll give them this. It's a little bit lazy, but it works, and it furthers the Episode IV/Episode VII parallel this movie is trying (almost too) desperately to create.

How did Han Solo find the main characters so quickly after they left the planet? They just so happened to be nearby? The fact the Falcon had a tracking device on it doesn't explain how they could show up so quickly.
Because this isn't Tolkien, we don't have characters disappear for seventeen years and then come back to them when it's handy for the plot (no offense to Tolkien). Also, FTL travel, folks.

The single most common excuse I hear for this film is that it's fun as an action film. But can't you also say that about the prequels?
The prequels, where all the fights except two or three are ridiculously implausible, shot from weird angles or too close up, and usually involved fighting unimportant drones for reasons no one cared about? Fun as action films? Uh, maybe, I guess? Mostly they were just boring as an anything film. Episode VII was anything but boring. I can't think of any terribly slow moments.

As for that second link, it doesn't seem to be criticizing the film as much as asking questions about it, which... we have five more films coming up to answer those questions. If those films come and go and we get no answers, then that'd be a legitimate complaint. I'd be complaining too. But it's not a complete story right now. We still have three more films (and two more spin-off films!) to go.
 

Chryssie

Internet Junkie
I think nit picky criticism is taking the fun out of it as you say. FFS people it is a MOVIE, it is for entertainment. It is not REAL. Who cares if some of the stuff makes little sense, it is supposed to be FUN. Lighten up! I loved it! It was entertaining, action packed and FUN. :p
 
J

Jeremy

Guest
Let's go!

Okay, already a problem with this one. I mean, yes, the prequels have MASSIVE plot holes. But the original trilogy does too. Some REALLY bad ones. The original movies are absolutely riddled with plot holes, repetitive tropes, deus ex machinas, and some downright lazy solutions to problems. (Take the entirety of Endor.) And yet, they're widely considered to be cinematic masterpieces. They're incredibly fun to watch, even with all their issues. Why? Because their storytelling is spot on. We really feel for the characters, we can follow the plot, we get invested. The prequels, on the other hand, have godawful storytelling. Characters cooperate for seemingly no reason other than "the plot says so," the focus is on all the wrong areas ("politics" which don't even make much sense rather than the suspenseful, character-heavy action sequences the originals did so well), the story balances all its weight on characters the audience doesn't care about (Jar Jar Binks, Jango Fett and young Boba [which, let's be honest, even the people who have this bizarre obsession with Boba Fett want to see him being a bounty hunter, not a first grader]) and discards characters they do care about without a second thought (Darth Maul could have been a great villain but he's dead before the first prequel is even through).

So. That's three good movies with huge plot holes, and three terrible movies with huge plot holes. Plot isn't everything, hell, it's not even the bulk of what makes a story good.



All fair gripes, I guess, if you went into the film expecting and wanting a political drama. For the vast majority of viewers, including my nitpicky ass, the information given was absolutely good enough. There's a republic with a segment dedicated to resisting corruption, a sort of homeland security. Leia holds some authority position there. There's a follow-up to the Empire hell-bent on finishing what it started. It obviously has some competency if it can build something like Starkiller Base. That tells us everything we need to know for a good story, we don't need a damn political hierarchy chart. If you want that, go watch West Wing or something. There are lots of resources you can use to read about the United States government and its structure. As for Star Wars, it is about wars in the stars, and if we have enough information to figure out who's who and what side people are on, that's good enough for me, and it's obviously good enough for most people watching due to the hugely positive reception this film has been getting.



Oh, bullshit. The political system in the prequels was inconsistent garbage made up on the fly. You can coerce someone into signing a treaty to make the invasion of their home planet legal? How the hell is that supposed to make any sense in something that's supposed to be a democracy? There's more - oh so much more - but it'd take way too long to go through it. If you think this is a poorly-done political system I invite you to sit through the prequels again. Seriously, actually pay attention. It makes very little sense.



Someone is mad that a girl can do things. Blah blah, we get it. It would have been nice to have some kind of indication she was so powerful with the Force from the beginning, but her case is not that bizarre, given that we just saw Kylo Ren, who hasn't even had any kind of intense training (which is made clear by the fact that Snoke only decides he's ready for training at the end of the film), stop a laser headed straight at him in damn mid-air and hold it there without concentrating much. And Kylo Ren is pretty pathetic, as this person brings up! I do generally agree that each of the main trio should have received a bit more characterization at the beginning. But that's only an issue because the film got started a bit too quickly for its own good. It has nothing to do with Rey's powers, which are pretty badass and I've seen mainly criticized by misogynists at this point.



Hey, nice job missing the point! Kylo Ren takes his mask off for precisely that reason. It destroys the illusion of him being competent and professional. He's obsessed with Darth Vader, he puts that stupid mask on even though he doesn't need it in the slightest, just because he thinks it looks cool. Yes, Kylo Ren is a brat. Yes, his characterization to that effect is totally intentional. He's whiny, he probably shops at space Hot Topic, and he's exactly the kind of person who would go on a rant on the internet about how much he hated the new Star Wars movie, so...



Lots of great fan service! For the reason that it's Star Wars! Seriously, you want pointless fan service, go look at the prequels. R2-D2 gets an award for fixing the ship! Anakin built C3-PO! Chewbacca does things! Look, Yoda even calls him Chewbacca! We acknowledge things exist and actually twist the plot around to make sure we get the opportunity to reference everything! On the other hand, the fan service in this was pretty well done. Little things here and there. The attack orb (I'm forgetting what it's called, I guess I'm not a true fan, forgive me) from Episode IV briefly appears, the Mouse Droids in the background of the ship in Jakku orbit, everything Han Solo says. It actually makes sense in context! Here's a relevant image:



In fact, that applies to the vast majority of criticisms here. Get that stick out of your ass! It's Star Wars! Have fun!



A massive accomplishment that took like 20 years, right? When they had to build an entire framework for the thing? And didn't already have an entire planet and a power source and thirty years? In a universe where FTL spaceships with artificial gravity are commonplace, to the point where such a device in working order could consistently be considered trash? Come on, folks.



Plot holes! Yup, that could be considered a plot hole, I guess, even though, y'know, the things I just said about technology, but let's go with it. Here are some other plot holes! How come Phasma, who apparently doesn't even rank as high as Ren and Hux, can disable every shield on the entire Starkiller Base from apparently any terminal on the entire planet? Poe obviously wanted desperately to find BB-8, how come he didn't go looking for him on Jakku when he was there, leaving that to Finn instead? How come Phasma sent Finn to the reconditioning he was clearly supposed to have with such little supervision that he could sneak off with a high-profile prisoner aboard a TIE-fighter in a heavily patrolled area? And I loved the film! It's almost like plot isn't everything.

Here's another, this time from the original trilogy: how come Luke's training on Dagobah seemed to take a damn long time while less than a day passed for Han and Leia? Who, by the way, were not traveling at relativistic speeds their entire time away? Also how relativity and physics in general doesn't seem to be a problem for anyone ever in this series?

Those are great movies. With massive plot holes. This is another.



I'll give them this. It's a little bit lazy, but it works, and it furthers the Episode IV/Episode VII parallel this movie is trying (almost too) desperately to create.



Because this isn't Tolkien, we don't have characters disappear for seventeen years and then come back to them when it's handy for the plot (no offense to Tolkien). Also, FTL travel, folks.



The prequels, where all the fights except two or three are ridiculously implausible, shot from weird angles or too close up, and usually involved fighting unimportant drones for reasons no one cared about? Fun as action films? Uh, maybe, I guess? Mostly they were just boring as an anything film. Episode VII was anything but boring. I can't think of any terribly slow moments.

As for that second link, it doesn't seem to be criticizing the film as much as asking questions about it, which... we have five more films coming up to answer those questions. If those films come and go and we get no answers, then that'd be a legitimate complaint. I'd be complaining too. But it's not a complete story right now. We still have three more films (and two more spin-off films!) to go.
You make some very good points. I really didn't care to dive into it as deeply as you have but my conclusion about Kylo Ren is pretty much the same. It's not that Rey is a "super jedi" or that Finn is "force sensitive", it's much more simple than that. Kylo Ren wants to fill the shoes of grandpa Vader but he falls short. I agree having him remove his helmet was meant to lessen the illusion of power to the viewer, to mortalize him I guess? I really don't think Rey showing him up was meant to convey that she is this incredible force user, but rather to show that Rylo is lacking.
 

Andy_T

Addicted Poster
Forum Moderator
I have always been a great fan of the timing in Star Wars movies :)
I mean, they build some Death Star over some decades, only to have it destroyed 20 seconds before it can finally be fired...
 

beancounter

The Fire That Burns Within
The PC crowd just loves the movie, and will defend it vigorously, because the protagonist are not white men... :p
 
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