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Is it ok to eat dairy, when there is a meat by-product?

Do you think it could become acceptable for us (vegetarians) to eat veal because it would mean that


  • Total voters
    9

Danielle

forever seeking fire
Location
Illinois
Ahimsa doesn't kill any of their cows.
Slaughter-free milk from humanely treated cows is VERY rare, but everyone acts like it doesn't exist at all. Milk doesn't require slaughter, but it usually does involve slaughter... because otherwise they'd lose money :I
 

Blobbenstein

.......
Location
UK.
but some people act as if it were a real alternative too, maybe, and use that as an excuse to consume ordinary dairy....I dunno, I don't get out much.
 

Danielle

forever seeking fire
Location
Illinois
Is it not a real alternative for some people? Though, yeah... I doubt any milk in the USA comes from cows like that
 

Amy SF

Dweller in nature
Male calves are used to produce veal because they're considered "useless". Cows are artificially inseminated, and when they produce calves, they also produce the milk that is taken to sell as dairy products. The female calves are then artificially inseminated to produce calves of their own, and any male calves are sent for veal, and the cycle continues, over and over...

Calves of either gender are lucky if they get to spend more than a couple days with their mothers after they're born.

Being a vegetarian does not mean I accept the cruelty of this situation. I am aware every time I put dairy products into my body. I am always, always feeling conflicted. I like to think that all the vegetarians on this board feel the same way because we talk about factory farming so much. I can't make any claims about any other vegetarians.
 

Blobbenstein

.......
Location
UK.
I was hit quite badly when I realised that I would have to give up dairy, but I felt better after a few minutes......I'm still not vegan, because that is too much commitment for an old tramp like me....still all the cheese and wotnot it out of my fridge.
 

shyvas

Deity
Forum Moderator
Male calves are used to produce veal because they're considered "useless". Cows are artificially inseminated, and when they produce calves, they also produce the milk that is taken to sell as dairy products. The female calves are then artificially inseminated to produce calves of their own, and any male calves are sent for veal, and the cycle continues, over and over...

Calves of either gender are lucky if they get to spend more than a couple days with their mothers after they're born.

Being a vegetarian does not mean I accept the cruelty of this situation. I am aware every time I put dairy products into my body. I am always, always feeling conflicted. I like to think that all the vegetarians on this board feel the same way because we talk about factory farming so much. I can't make any claims about any other vegetarians.
Same here. I feel guilty and don't like my-self, when I eat dairy which isn't very often.
 

RabbitLuvr

I love rabbits.
Location
Rabbitville, USA
I don't mind a philosophical discussion of this topic, but threads like this seem to always turn into very heated vegan vs vegetarian arguments, especially when it's brought up in such a loaded way. Not cool on forums that try to support both.

More gentle, positive posts did much more to reduce my dairy consumption.
 

Alice-Bee

Mad as A Hatter
Location
Durham UK
I don't mind a philosophical discussion of this topic, but threads like this seem to always turn into very heated vegan vs vegetarian arguments, especially when it's brought up in such a loaded way. Not cool on forums that try to support both.

More gentle, positive posts did much more to reduce my dairy consumption.
Agree.
 

RascalsMom

Addicted Poster
I'm trying to word this in the most non confrontational way - it's hard to convey tone over text, and it's something I fully admit I haven't quite mastered. So please, I mean no offense by this - I am honestly curious. And of course, feel free to not answer.

For those of you who say you feel guilt every time you consume dairy - whats the biggest factor in you not giving it up? Lack of substitute? Phasing it out? Convenience/taste/feel it would be too difficult? I ask because from the posts here, it seems like something you don't want to support, and feel bad about doing so. If there's anything I can do to help a transition to giving up dairy - recipes, support, product recommendations, anything - please let me know.
 

Amy SF

Dweller in nature
I think everything you mentioned are all the factors for me. For one thing, I've tried dairy substitutes, and I hate most of them. The only thing I'm willing to stick with now for me are the nut milks, mainly almond milk. I was doing well avoiding buying dairy milk, but these days I buy half and half because my cat Bear likes it and it helps him with his number 2's. Otherwise I wouldn't buy it.

Convenience definitely is a big factor for me, also. I've been to lots of places where vegetarian foods are offered, but little to no vegan foods. And sometimes it's not possible for me to bring anything vegan. The world is still so overwhelmingly omni that a lot of people think they're doing the bare minimum of accommodation when they have dairy and egg foods. In fact, I've almost eaten omni foods by mistake for this reason, when I assumed something was vegetarian and it wasn't.
 
I don't mind a philosophical discussion of this topic, but threads like this seem to always turn into very heated vegan vs vegetarian arguments, especially when it's brought up in such a loaded way. Not cool on forums that try to support both.

More gentle, positive posts did much more to reduce my dairy consumption.
Agree.
 

Amy SF

Dweller in nature
btw, I've liked the non dairy ice cream types I've tried, so I'm willing to stick with those, too. I think dairy substitutes are a work in progress. For me most of them (especially the Tofutti "better than" items) just don't taste enough like the real thing for me to accept them. :confused:
 

RascalsMom

Addicted Poster
I think the convenience thing is something you have to get used to. I spent 6 years as a vegan in southern Georgia - I embraced it and tried to use it as a way to educate people. A lot of people hasn't even HEARD of vegans, and didn't know the difference between a vegan and a vegetarian.

I think it's exciting that restaurants are starting to offer vegetarian options. A lot of Mexican restaurants, I've noticed more than most places, even have a vegetarian menu these days. It's rarely vegan but if you ask politely, I've never had a problem ordering these items without dairy.
If there's nothing vegan at all on the menu, you can usually talk to a cook. They are normally happy to assist - a fall back for me is usually pasta with a plain marinara sauce. Almost everywhere has the ingredients to throw that together. A lot of times they will only charge me for a kids price for the pasta being "plain", too!
Normally - just ask and you shall receive :)
 

RascalsMom

Addicted Poster
Also, as far as substitutes go, I am just starting to use more dairy substitutes - and I fully admit it may be because it's been years since I've had any dairy. Definitely, like when giving up meat, learn to cook a lot of good meals without a substitute. Later you may find you like the substitutes better as you won't be comparing them as much to dairy.
 

RabbitLuvr

I love rabbits.
Location
Rabbitville, USA
Ok, here's an example for me... I have found one commercially available wheat sandwich bread that doesn't require me to drive far out of my way, or cost $6 for a tiny loaf. This one bread does not contain dairy or eggs, but does have added D3. It also tastes like crap.
(I have spent literally hours in all the grocery stores near me reading labels.)
Dark rye appears vegan, but I don't like rye. Or potato bread. Gross.

I am too lazy to make my own bread constantly, plus I don't like homemade bread for everyday sandwiches.

So I have gone back to eating bread that contains dairy.

If there was a bread that was identical to Pepperidge Farms German Dark Wheat or 15 Grain Whole Wheat, just minus dairy, I would switch. I just haven't found anything in my area (believe me, I've looked), and am unwilling to eat bread I don't like or give up bread totally.

I posted my frustrations about this here and on Facebook. People offered a few suggestions, but none were practical or available to me.

I do make my grilled cheese sandwiches with Daiya Cheddar Shreds, and use Vegenaise instead of mayo. But for now anyway, I'm going to continue eating bread with dairy.
 

RabbitLuvr

I love rabbits.
Location
Rabbitville, USA
There is a convenience factor for me as well. Another example... At Easter my MIL went to great trouble to make a separate entree just for me, using some ingredients she wasn't familiar with. It didn't taste all that great, but I ate it because she had put the effort in, and the only other things for me to eat (at a table full of people) were one sweet potato (she only had dairy butter so I ate it with just salt), and about six spears of overcooked, oil-drenched asparagus. After the meal I tried to be polite and ask her about what she'd made, and as she listed off the ingredients, she hit "Parm" then raised her hands and said "OH NO!!" (So we can avoid the Parm debate here, Parmesan cheese in the US does not have to contain animal rennet; vegetarian Parm is common.)

She didn't do it on purpose. While I could hope she learned from the mistake, she honestly has trouble sticking to her own dietary restrictions (she's diabetic), and I really can't count on her to remember next time. I do try to get out of eating at her house as much as possible, but sometimes it's unavoidable.

At this point in my life, I am too stressed out about other things to add getting upset about this, too.

As for asking for custom things at restaurants... My social anxiety prevents me from doing this. I've heard time and again to "just ask" if the chef can make something from available ingredients, but I really really cannot do this. I also have phone anxiety, so I would never call any place ahead of time to check/request something. It's something that is quite easy for some people, but difficult for others.

I do check online menus before going some place new, and generally avoid any restaurant that doesn't have an online menu for me to check for vegan options. But sometimes I end up somewhere that has a dish containing cheese as the only vegetarian choice. My blood sugar can be unstable, so skipping a meal isn't always an option for me, and I would be completely embarrassed if I was the only one there not eating, or if I was sitting in a restaurant eating a Luna bar.
 

RascalsMom

Addicted Poster
Ok, here's an example for me... I have found one commercially available wheat sandwich bread that doesn't require me to drive far out of my way, or cost $6 for a tiny loaf. This one bread does not contain dairy or eggs, but does have added D3. It also tastes like crap.
(I have spent literally hours in all the grocery stores near me reading labels.)
Dark rye appears vegan, but I don't like rye. Or potato bread. Gross.

I am too lazy to make my own bread constantly, plus I don't like homemade bread for everyday sandwiches.

So I have gone back to eating bread that contains dairy.

If there was a bread that was identical to Pepperidge Farms German Dark Wheat or 15 Grain Whole Wheat, just minus dairy, I would switch. I just haven't found anything in my area (believe me, I've looked), and am unwilling to eat bread I don't like or give up bread totally.

I posted my frustrations about this here and on Facebook. People offered a few suggestions, but none were practical or available to me.

I do make my grilled cheese sandwiches with Daiya Cheddar Shreds, and use Vegenaise instead of mayo. But for now anyway, I'm going to continue eating bread with dairy.
Do you have a dollar tree near by? If you eat a lot of bread, go there. They often have expensive brands that are close to expiring. If you can't eat the whole loaf before it goes bad, freeze it.
 

RascalsMom

Addicted Poster
As for the social anxiety - I have it too, so I won't call restaurants. It is very hard to force myself to ask for special requests, but I make myself do it. When I first went vegan, I admit that a lot of times my sister spoke for me. Like all things that anxiety prohibits - it gets easier each time you MAKE yourself do it, even of your voice is shaking and you're having a total inner (and partly outer) freak out over it. I've been there, so -hug-. It's a work in progress for me but I just FORCE myself.
 
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