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FR France's own Trump?

Indian Summer

Cult Leader
Administrator
I must say that after reading the (IMO not very well written, with lots of grammar mistakes) article, many of the arguments given do sound like arguments that are propagated by the right wing, but possibly not correct (same thing happens in Germany all the time) to me.

But then, I would see things differently, as I am more left-leaning obviously.
If you give a microphone to random people in the streets, you will hear a lot of strange statements, not all of them correct. Politicians still need to somehow address the general sentiments expressed.

In Europe in general, neither the Left nor the mainstream political parties have any convincing responses or solutions to the concerns many people have on issues related to immigration, Islamist extremism and terrorism. When Christians in the middle east (who share cultural ties with Europeans) are being persecuted and massacred, all these politicians can offer are condemnations. And again, when people in our own countries are being murdered in the streets by Islamist terrorist, the politicians can only condemn and wave their fists. However, they are not seen to be doing anything real about the underlying problems. People fear for their own safety, but they also fear that their "European" values (tolerance, gender equality, trust between groups, ...) are under threat.
 
Location
UK
In Europe in general, neither the Left nor the mainstream political parties have any convincing responses or solutions to the concerns many people have on issues related to immigration, Islamist extremism and terrorism. When Christians in the middle east (who share cultural ties with Europeans) are being persecuted and massacred, all these politicians can offer are condemnations. And again, when people in our own countries are being murdered in the streets by Islamist terrorist, the politicians can only condemn and wave their fists. However, they are not seen to be doing anything real about the underlying problems. People fear for their own safety, but they also fear that their "European" values (tolerance, gender equality, trust between groups, ...) are under threat.
Now I'm wittering on about the UK in the France thread!:D I don't really understand your viewpoint, you seem to be against the current immigration levels in some European countries, but you seem to be quite socialist and you support someone like JC who thinks immigration should be unlimited. o_O

What do you think the solutions are? I don't know what they are myself, but I'm just interested.
 

Indian Summer

Cult Leader
Administrator
I don't really understand your viewpoint, you seem to be against the current immigration levels in some European countries, but you seem to be quite socialist and you support someone like JC who thinks immigration should be unlimited. o_O
I'm afraid there are no political parties that see the world quite the same way as I do. My views tend to align with Green, socialist and sometimes social democratic parties, except on immigration and integration where I feel a lot more realism and sometimes innovative thinking is required than what these parties tend to offer.
What do you think the solutions are? I don't know what they are myself, but I'm just interested.
Sorry to disappoint again - I don't have many answers. My post above was mostly meant to highlight people's concerns and explain why some choose to support far right parties which do purport to have solutions to these problems. But I think it helps if we can have honest discussions guided by realism and rational thinking more than idealism, politicized and emotional thinking.
 

shyvas

Deity
Forum Moderator
I'm afraid there are no political parties that see the world quite the same way as I do. My views tend to align with Green, socialist and sometimes social democratic parties, except on immigration and integration where I feel a lot more realism and sometimes innovative thinking is required than what these parties tend to offer.

Sorry to disappoint again - I don't have many answers. My post above was mostly meant to highlight people's concerns and explain why some choose to support far right parties which do purport to have solutions to these problems. But I think it helps if we can have honest discussions guided by realism and rational thinking more than idealism, politicized and emotional thinking.
This is exactly what I'm hearing when discussing the immigration crisis. Many people are angry because they cannot voice their opinions without being attacked verbally. I even heard someone (in the UK) tell me that I had to cast 'the right vote' for the Presidential election.
 
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Andy_T

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I even heard someone (in the UK) tell me that I had to cast 'the right vote' for the Presidential election.
The challenge here seems to me that if you would think about voting for Mr. Twimp because of his stance on immigrants ("Build the wall!!!!"), you would also be enabling everything else that he stands for.

So I would agree with a person saying that it's a no-brainer which of the 2016 US presidential candidates a thinking person (or at least a feeling person) would vote for.

But the outcome of the election seems to suggest that the turnout among no-brainers was much higher than that among other voters...
 
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Location
UK
Sorry to disappoint again - I don't have many answers. My post above was mostly meant to highlight people's concerns and explain why some choose to support far right parties which do purport to have solutions to these problems. But I think it helps if we can have honest discussions guided by realism and rational thinking more than idealism, politicized and emotional thinking.
The far right often don't have any realistic solutions though, that is why I don't understand why people vote that way. If MLP would have won and tried to stop all immigration to France the economy would probably collapse and the young and educated people would probably want to leave France and live elsewhere.

I hope that if Macron can stimulate the economy and improve the prospects for people who feel angry and left behind that the tensions in France will subside. I have read that he is meant to be ridiculously clever so I hope he knows what he is doing!
 

shyvas

Deity
Forum Moderator
The challenge here seems to me that if you would think about voting for Mr. Twimp because of his stance on immigrants ("Build the wall!!!!"), you would also be enabling everything else that he stands for.

So I would agree with a person saying that it's a no-brainer which of the 2016 US presidential candidates a thinking person (or at least a feeling person) would vote for.

But the outcome of the election seems to suggest that the turnout among no-brainers was much higher than that among other voters...
Regardless on whether one agrees with 'the wall', illegal immigrants, too many immigrants etc, it is not acceptable that someone suggests or dictates how you should vote.
 

Indian Summer

Cult Leader
Administrator
The challenge here seems to me that if you would think about voting for Mr. Twimp because of his stance on immigrants ("Build the wall!!!!"), you would also be enabling everything else that he stands for.
Agreed, that is the problem with him, as well as with Le Pen, who I suppose is more relevant to this thread.
 

Indian Summer

Cult Leader
Administrator
The far right often don't have any realistic solutions though, that is why I don't understand why people vote that way.
Let's face it, there are a lot of clueless people out there. Just look at the number of people who are still smoking after many decades of warnings from health authorities about the risk of cancer.
If MLP would have won and tried to stop all immigration to France the economy would probably collapse and the young and educated people would probably want to leave France and live elsewhere.
Le Pen would probably have been a disaster for a whole range of reasons.
I hope that if Macron can stimulate the economy and improve the prospects for people who feel angry and left behind that the tensions in France will subside. I have read that he is meant to be ridiculously clever so I hope he knows what he is doing!
Afraid I don't really share your optimism about Macron. I suppose it could be an advantage that he's got his own, brand new political party, so could potentially bring some fresh faces and new ideas into government, but he comes from the same kind of background as the rest of the elite, and his political positions don't sound terribly innovative. It's hard to see how he could do much for ordinary people.
 
Location
UK
Afraid I don't really share your optimism about Macron. I suppose it could be an advantage that he's got his own, brand new political party, so could potentially bring some fresh faces and new ideas into government, but he comes from the same kind of background as the rest of the elite, and his political positions don't sound terribly innovative. It's hard to see how he could do much for ordinary people.
I don't have great faith in Macron actually, I'm just generally quite hopeful and optimistic, lol. It's great fun to whine and to disagree with everything on offer if you are left wing, but in the end you usually have to vote for the best option, or to come up with something pragmatic that sensible people would vote for!
 
Location
UK
I'm so jealous of the French people having Macron. I'm really grinding my teeth when I see him be so effortlessly charming all the time. :rofl:

I'm not sure that the next decent British leader has even been born yet!
 

shyvas

Deity
Forum Moderator
I'm so jealous of the French people having Macron. I'm really grinding my teeth when I see him be so effortlessly charming all the time. :rofl:

I'm not sure that the next decent British leader has even been born yet!
I tip my hat at Macron, he seems to have done a good job so far, I have to admit, or at least compared to a lot of other world leaders.

He is mostly hated by the working class and they voice out loud that he is not their president.

I have never seen such riots since May 68 with so many injured protesters,including many people who have lost an eye, and do not know how all of this will end. I'm appalled by the violence of the police force.

The wealthy complain about the yellow vests blocking roundabouts and that it's difficult to go out to the shops or cinemas.

When a well off lady mentioned this to me yesterday, I replied ''how do you think that these people feel and manage when they have spent their entire salary on utilities and food and are broke by the 15 th ?''.
 
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Indian Summer

Cult Leader
Administrator
He did seem like a breath of fresh air to start with - someone with a brave plan for reforms and renewal, and with sufficient sophistication to go through with it. I don't follow French politics in much detail, but I think it was only after some of his "reforms" turned out to be stabbing the working class in the back that he was crowned with the pejorative title "president of the rich".
 

shyvas

Deity
Forum Moderator
He did seem like a breath of fresh air to start with - someone with a brave plan for reforms and renewal, and with sufficient sophistication to go through with it. I don't follow French politics in much detail, but I think it was only after some of his "reforms" turned out to be stabbing the working class in the back that he was crowned with the pejorative title "president of the rich".
Macron who is a former banker, does not like the working class or the unemployed. Some foreign, political commentators predicted what was on the horizon :

Don’t be fooled by Emmanuel Macron the ‘moderate’ | Owen Jones

Unemployment has always been hight in France, approx. 10 % compared to other wealthy EU countries :

Unemployment 2019
 
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Location
UK
He is mostly hated by the working class and they voice out loud that he is not their president.
Yeah, he did seem to lose popularity very quickly!:eek:

The men at my husband's work really dislike Sadiq Khan, the London mayor. He doesn't really seem like he has done anything much at all and he was quite popular with Londoners at first.
 

shyvas

Deity
Forum Moderator
Yeah, he did seem to lose popularity very quickly!:eek:

The men at my husband's work really dislike Sadiq Khan, the London mayor. He doesn't really seem like he has done anything much at all and he was quite popular with Londoners at first.
SK even got his own balloon and apparently seemed amused by it.

Small crowd gather to watch £58k balloon of Sadiq Khan in a yellow bikini

With regard to Macron, so many people are fed up with him and his promises, that a new political party has been formed and named Les Emergents.

Former gilets jaunes leader launches new political party 'Les Emergents'
 
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Andy_T

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Would be interesting to hear about their party program, as soon as they have set one up, other than "withdrawing privileges from elected representatives, reducing VAT on basic products and increasing taxes for high-earning companies and better wealth distribution between employees and shareholders".

Those ideas sound a little socialist to me (which might not be a bad thing).
 

shyvas

Deity
Forum Moderator
"Jacline Mouraud, widely credited with starting the yellow vests movement, said the party,
Les Émergents (the Arisen), “won’t be rightwing or leftwing” and will aim to do politics differently."

Despite the uproar of these last few months, when it will come to the crunch, I have my doubts. The French
are very conservative and don't like change. Minor political parties never score well during the 2 nd vote.


Second gilets jaunes protester launches political party
 

Indian Summer

Cult Leader
Administrator
Sounds like the gilets jaunes have a real problem with violence: "The venue for the conference was announced only minutes before it started due to threats by other members of the movement [...]"

The French
are very conservative and don't like change. Minor political parties never score well during the 2 nd vote.
But Macron's party came out of nowhere and they managed to win the presidency, right?
 
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