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Spirituality Can God witness murder? And what about the after life?

Dropkick

the best half of a great wit
Location
Montana
Keeping someone from harm doesn't necessarily limit their growth. In addition, if they are kept from harm, they will probably live longer, not shorter.

Also, I think you Malevolent category should really be "ambivalent".

But anyway, it's just mental acrobatics, because there is no god.
Yes, but growing up in a box with no mental stimulation does limit your growth and lifespan, which is the only way to keep them safe from all harm.
And if you've read my prior posts this was pretty much my whole reason why I believe God doesn't keep us safe.

More like:

You have a bunch of puppies. Also you can bend the Universe to your will.

Benevolent God​
You bend the Universe so puppies can run around in peace, don't die, and still have all this room to roam around.​
See what I said above. Without some form of conflict (i.e. suffering vs. pleasure) there is no reason for mental growth or even movement. I suppose you could make a case for imbecilic vegetables being happy, but what's the point?​
Malevolent God​
One of the puppies pees on your rug. You kick it out of the house, shoot it in the ribcage, and leave it on the streets. You then say to all the puppies that because one of the puppies peed on the rug, all of them must suffer the inevitability of death, and subject them to all kinds of terrible things. When asked why, you tell everyone that the puppies can't possibly understand the mysterious ways you work because they're dogs and you're a Universe-bending person or whatever. When asked why you didn't just bend the Universe to be kinder to the puppies, or maybe even so the puppies don't pee on the rug in the first place since that is entirely within your ability, you get angry and start raining fire and brimstone from the sky.​
Your using stories from the Bible like the Bible wasn't a series of oral stories, or parables that were written down in a different language from the language they were originally told in, then translated again from crumbling if not almost totally destroyed scrolls. and then greatly edited by the church. It's a study guide, and that's all it is.
Besides, I'm talking about the need for suffering and hardship to exist in order for healthy growth to take place on both a personal and cultural level, stories from the Christian Bible or teachings from any other religion are superfluous to this point.
 

m-a-h

Well Known Member
My two cents:

Yes I do believe "God" can witness murder. If people claim "God" to be omnipotent ,truly omnipotent, then he/she/it would know everything past, present, and future. Going from that then "God" would have known from the moment he/she/it existed, or at the moment of creation. Also it was "God" who told Abraham to kill his son Issac. As it was "God" who destroyed Sodom & Gommarh, and also flooded the earth.

I personally do question the origins of modern religions. I was not raised in a religious environment per say, but it definitely was not atheist. I do personally believe in some type of supreme underlying force that has allowed everything to be. I don't feel that it is a single being. To me that just doesn't feel right.
 

Dropkick

the best half of a great wit
Location
Montana
My two cents:

Yes I do believe "God" can witness murder. If people claim "God" to be omnipotent ,truly omnipotent, then he/she/it would know everything past, present, and future. Going from that then "God" would have known from the moment he/she/it existed, or at the moment of creation. Also it was "God" who told Abraham to kill his son Issac. As it was "God" who destroyed Sodom & Gommarh, and also flooded the earth.

I personally do question the origins of modern religions. I was not raised in a religious environment per say, but it definitely was not atheist. I do personally believe in some type of supreme underlying force that has allowed everything to be. I don't feel that it is a single being. To me that just doesn't feel right.
More of my beliefs;
I don't believe any one religion is correct, I don't believe they're totally incorrect either.
I think the Universe created itself. The Universe is (all) God(s). God can be more than one thing at the same time.
We are part of the Universe. When we die we join with the rest of the Universe in a "universal mind" - or what makes us, us (our personality/self) is either deleted or doesn't join with the rest -this is "hell".
God might be omnipotent (powerful) but isn't omniscient (knows all)- at least as far as those of us with free will are concerned.
I think we were created (and given free will) in order to entertain, teach, and add knowledge to God.

-None of what I believe disagrees with current scientific teachings (as opposed to most Christian based religions).
 

Blobbenstein

.......
Location
UK.
I have started to think that there might have been a tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but it wouldn't have been on Earth, it would have existed in some paradise before this Universe came into being.....and there might even have been a snake, and whenever whoever ate of the apple and was cast out, then that created this universe. This is a fallen paradise with some of the rules of the old paradise, although a lot less forgiving...the very matter that makes this universe is alive at the atomic/subatomic level, the life of whoever fell, which created the first cells, which then developed through evolution, and any other mechanisms that exist.

Also I think that universes big bang, then expand then evaporate, and then big bang again, so you get a chain of universes. Each one would be very old before it BBed again. So I'm not sure where this chain starts.

I think before the fall, there was a place full of beings, non of which ate each other. A paradise, like a dream, which things changed around you according to how you felt, but God must have felt the need to give the being a choice, freewill, or at least a choice, or maybe the tree grew on its own, and God just warned the inhabitance not to eat of it, and then the talking snake came along, and a couple of people ate of it......
 

K-II

Famous Member
When we die we join with the rest of the Universe in a "universal mind" - or what makes us, us (our personality/self) is either deleted or doesn't join with the rest -this is "hell".
Why (how) would we stop being joined with it by being alive? How would we even know if we have stopped?
 

FortyTwo

Custom Title
Yes, but growing up in a box with no mental stimulation does limit your growth and lifespan, which is the only way to keep them safe from all harm.
And if you've read my prior posts this was pretty much my whole reason why I believe God doesn't keep us safe.
But you see, if there were truly a benevolent yet omnipotent God, then it would keep us safe, without limiting our lifespan, or free will. That is well within the power of a being that can literally perform any task. Why invent cell decay? Why have things die if they don't have to? Why let suffering happen when you can bend the laws of the Universe to keep it from happening?

You are looking at this from a point of view where an omnipotent being would be confined to the laws and rules that apply to the Universe as we know it, when a truly omnipotent being would not have to follow these.
 

FortyTwo

Custom Title
Why (how) would we stop being joined with it by being alive? How would we even know if we have stopped?
And, what I've always wondered most of all, how does one scientifically argue for an immortal soul? The only reason we work is due to a complex series of electrical signals from our brain. If they stop, they stop, and we die. How would they continue after they stop? Do they change state into some kind of pure-energy being, like in Stargate? Do they hook up into the air and fly away like the aliens and the trees in Avatar? I really wish someone would explain a plausible way for the afterlife to occur that doesn't simply rely on "we can't explain it" because if it happens then it can be explained, even if the explanation is bizzare and complicated and defies common sense.
 

Dropkick

the best half of a great wit
Location
Montana
Once again I want to make my disclaimer - This is what I currently believe about God and Man's purpose. My beliefs are constantly evolving, and may change, so I can't claim to be inerrant in what I say here. This is just what I feel to be true (though some of it is based on what I know to be true).

Why (how) would we stop being joined with it by being alive? How would we even know if we have stopped?
You're ignoring the part where I said we were here (alive) to gain knowledge and experience and bring it back to the group mind (God).
While we existed before our conception, we didn't exist as a definable being. We (our consciousness) didn't exist.

But you see, if there were truly a benevolent yet omnipotent God, then it would keep us safe, without limiting our lifespan, or free will. That is well within the power of a being that can literally perform any task. Why invent cell decay? Why have things die if they don't have to? Why let suffering happen when you can bend the laws of the Universe to keep it from happening?

You are looking at this from a point of view where an omnipotent being would be confined to the laws and rules that apply to the Universe as we know it, when a truly omnipotent being would not have to follow these.
You keep ignoring the part where I say "Suffering is necessary for growth, and that growth is why we're here".
And what's free will good for if your choices are limited to only those that are approved?
Death is a necessary part of the equation also as it is the way we return to God with the knowledge and learning we gained.

And, what I've always wondered most of all, how does one scientifically argue for an immortal soul? The only reason we work is due to a complex series of electrical signals from our brain. If they stop, they stop, and we die. How would they continue after they stop? Do they change state into some kind of pure-energy being, like in Stargate? Do they hook up into the air and fly away like the aliens and the trees in Avatar? I really wish someone would explain a plausible way for the afterlife to occur that doesn't simply rely on "we can't explain it" because if it happens then it can be explained, even if the explanation is bizzare and complicated and defies common sense.
Energy and matter can not be destroyed they can only be transformed. Everything we are becomes something else.
Just because we can't measure and explain it now doesn't mean there isn't an explanation.
 

Dropkick

the best half of a great wit
Location
Montana
Last night I woke up and I thought of another possible explanation that's worth discussing.
God is supposed to see things in terms of eternity and after we die we are supposed to leave this life and spend eternity with him. So maybe what we see as great suffering now God (and possibly us after death) see as comparable to the complaints of a baby who just woke up and is fussing for it's mother.
 

K-II

Famous Member
You're ignoring the part where I said we were here (alive) to gain knowledge and experience and bring it back to the group mind (God).
While we existed before our conception, we didn't exist as a definable being. We (our consciousness) didn't exist.
I wasn't asking what we were doing it for.
 

FortyTwo

Custom Title
You keep ignoring the part where I say "Suffering is necessary for growth, and that growth is why we're here".
And what's free will good for if your choices are limited to only those that are approved?
Death is a necessary part of the equation also as it is the way we return to God with the knowledge and learning we gained.
Then God should make growth possible without suffering. He is omnipotent after all.

If no other choices exist other than those that are "approved" then how can we ever know of them? How can God ever know of them if he does not create them to torment us with?

Why not have us return to God without some kind of horrible experience? Can't we all just live with God?
 

Dropkick

the best half of a great wit
Location
Montana
I apologize for being so blunt, but who are you to say what "God" should do?
This is a hypothetical conversation. Some of the people in it are Christians, some are Atheists, I think there might be a Buddhist taking part, and some of the others are ??.​
And condemnation of others views, beliefs, and thoughts aren't conductive to the continuation of the conversation.​
Besides I think God can take care of any indignation that he might feel about being told what to do all by himself.​
 
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