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UK News Brexit - should the UK leave the EU?

It is gratifying how quiet some Leave people are now compared to how vocal they were before the vote. I think reality is sinking in. Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their tune? - BBC News

Labour MPs pass no-confidence motion in Jeremy Corbyn - BBC News
A motion of no confidence in Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has been passed by the party's MPs.

The 172-40 vote, which is not binding, follows resignations from the shadow cabinet and calls on Mr Corbyn to quit.

(Is the man deaf or stupid?)
I think it's arrogance, people who support him treat him like a cult leader and it has gone to his head.

I was thinking about joining the Labour party just so I can vote, the only problem is that lots of Conservatives paid their £3 and joined the Labour party to vote for Jeremy Corbyn last time because they thought he was the absolute worse candidate!

Well, I don't know that it was lots of them, but I've seen quite a few people online that said they did exactly that.
 

AeryFairy

Anachronism
I think it's arrogance, people who support him treat him like a cult leader and it has gone to his head.

I was thinking about joining the Labour party just so I can vote, the only problem is that lots of Conservatives paid their £3 and joined the Labour party to vote for Jeremy Corbyn last time because they thought he was the absolute worse candidate!

Well, I don't know that it was lots of them, but I've seen quite a few people online that said they did exactly that.
I think it's that he's not a normal kind of politician, and that he doesn't fit into the centrist labour mould. He needed to come out strongly in favour of Remain, and instead he gave his honest opinion - an opinion that I agree with. The EU isn't the best, it definitely has its problems, but in the current economic climate and under the current government we're better off in than out. The conservatives, the media, and his own party have spent a lot of time trying to overthrow him since he got in, and it's tearing the labour party to shreds which is a shame, because that's exactly what we don't need. But I don't think people should ignore that he won by a landslide victory and still has the support of the public - I doubt there was a significant percentage of conservative voters who caused that. I think it's that support which is preventing him from resigning - wanting to do right by the people who voted for him, rather than arrogance.

I am, cautiously, pro-Corbyn myself - in that, if it came to a general election and Corbyn was still heading up labour, I would likely throw my support behind him (as opposed to supporting the Green party like I have done in recent elections) . I think he'd be good for the country, and for politics in general.
 
I think it's that he's not a normal kind of politician, and that he doesn't fit into the centrist labour mould. He needed to come out strongly in favour of Remain, and instead he gave his honest opinion - an opinion that I agree with. The EU isn't the best, it definitely has its problems, but in the current economic climate and under the current government we're better off in than out. The conservatives, the media, and his own party have spent a lot of time trying to overthrow him since he got in, and it's tearing the labour party to shreds which is a shame, because that's exactly what we don't need. But I don't think people should ignore that he won by a landslide victory and still has the support of the public - I doubt there was a significant percentage of conservative voters who caused that. I think it's that support which is preventing him from resigning - wanting to do right by the people who voted for him, rather than arrogance.

I am, cautiously, pro-Corbyn myself - in that, if it came to a general election and Corbyn was still heading up labour, I would likely throw my support behind him (as opposed to supporting the Green party like I have done in recent elections) . I think he'd be good for the country, and for politics in general.
I really don't think he would stand a chance in a general election. I think Labour are trying to appeal to two completely different type of people, the working class in the north and more affluent people in the south and I don't think it will work. People who are doing well financially are more likely to vote Tory, just from the people I know, and they used to be Labour voters. Ukip have picked up a lot of Labour voters too.
 

AeryFairy

Anachronism
I really don't think he would stand a chance in a general election. I think Labour are trying to appeal to two completely different type of people, the working class in the north and more affluent people in the south and I don't think it will work. People who are doing well financially are more likely to vote Tory, just from the people I know, and they used to be Labour voters. Ukip have picked up a lot of Labour voters too.
Maybe not... but neither do the Green Party, and I usually vote for them :p The only time I would vote strategically is when my vote will matter in my constituency (e.g. a close contest), and for my entire voting life I've lived in areas which Labour have on lock.
 
Maybe not... but neither do the Green Party, and I usually vote for them :p The only time I would vote strategically is when my vote will matter in my constituency (e.g. a close contest), and for my entire voting life I've lived in areas which Labour have on lock.
:DYeah, I understand your point of view (btw I agree with your view on the EU and I think most Remain people do). I suppose I am thinking of it in a practical way as there is no point having JC as leader just to be idealistic, Labour need to be in government at some point if they want to put their policies in place.o_O I'm just worried that England will get more and more right wing, especially if Scotland does get a second referendum and they decide to leave the union.

If the Labour party splits in two over this, I think it would be good if the Labour party and the Lib Dems could join up against the Conservatives. I'm not sure if that is likely though.:p
 

AeryFairy

Anachronism
:DYeah, I understand your point of view (btw I agree with your view on the EU and I think most Remain people do). I suppose I am thinking of it in a practical way as there is no point having JC as leader just to be idealistic, Labour need to be in government at some point if they want to put their policies in place.o_O I'm just worried that England will get more and more right wing, especially if Scotland does get a second referendum and they decide to leave the union.

If the Labour party splits in two over this, I think it would be good if the Labour party and the Lib Dems could join up against the Conservatives. I'm not sure if that is likely though.:p
I know what you mean about being practical. The thing is, I think a Corbyn Labour would do well in a general election if the party got behind him, but they aren't about to do that. And under a different leadership, many people don't see a Labour worth voting for (there's only minimal differences between Blairite Labour and Conservative at this point), so they're kind of screwed whether he holds on to the leadership or not.

A Labour/Lib Dem coalition would be interesting... apparently the Lib Dems have made 'remain' a big point of their campaign. Thing is, after the way they burned their voter base 5 years ago (tuition fees), I don't see them getting very far.
 
I actually like a lot of the Lib Dem ideas, although I've never voted for them, I've only ever voted Labour and Green.

I was thinking that I am surprised by how much this has all affected me, somebody else mentioned that they feel like they are going through the 5 stages of grief - denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I was on anger, but think I've moved on to depression.:|

I have also enjoyed the names I've been called online during this whole EU referendum and in the aftermath, liberal/metropolitan elite, part of the chattering class, champagne socialist etc... lol.:D ETA - Somebody told me I was racist against white British people.

I know what you mean about being practical. The thing is, I think a Corbyn Labour would do well in a general election if the party got behind him, but they aren't about to do that. And under a different leadership, many people don't see a Labour worth voting for (there's only minimal differences between Blairite Labour and Conservative at this point), so they're kind of screwed whether he holds on to the leadership or not.
I don't have much idea what people outside London think about Jeremy Corbyn, the people I've spoken to seem to be split between people who think he is a breath of fresh air or those who think he is an absolute joke and a gift to the Conservative party.
 

Joe

Celebrity Member
I wonder whether any of you would be kind enough to explain to me why Scotland favors retaining EU membership so much more than the English do. I understand there is a substantial difference between England and Scotland on this issue. What I don't understand is why.
 

shyvas

Deity
Forum Moderator
I find it interesting that the only people supporting Brexit here in the forum seem to be a Scandinavian immigrant to the UK and a UK expat living in Europe ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Supporting Brexit doesn't necessarily mean that one is racist as most remain campaigners have stated. I think that the UK will
have a brighter future with it's economy once it exits the EU.
The EU isn't beneficial to all it's members ; the rich countries support the poor ones. There is far too much red tape and European laws which make everyday life a difficult task. Brussels is the Big Brother and doesn't take into account each individual member of the EU. Far too much money is spent on debating, voting legislation etc.

As an expat I didn't have the right of vote in the referendum.
 

Joe

Celebrity Member
Dunno if this is the right forum in which to post this, but the BBC has an eight-part series on the psychology of the EU referendum, in a program called "The Human Zoo." This info sheet is quite long, but here goes.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Human Zoo
The series that looks at current events through the lens of psychology - Michael Blastland explores the quirky ways in which we humans think, behave and make decisions.
A Pier production for BBC Radio 4.

160/44; 255.3 MB; sound quality excellent


1/8. As a matter of fact...
Tue 14 June 2016, 15:30

In this first episode of a new series, we look at facts and the EU referendum. We are bombarded with statistics and projections about how the UK will benefit or suffer, depending on whether or not we are in or out of Europe. And we, the public, clamour for even more. How do we respond and use these facts, if at all, to formulate a reasoned opinion?

To what extent do we make a judgment first and then collect the evidence afterwards? Do we simply seek out facts that confirm our original belief - are we simply self-justification machines? As we near ballot time, the Human Zoo team investigate how emotions - such as fear and anger - may shape the way we think and act.

Michael Blastland is joined by resident psychologist Nick Chater, Professor of Behavioural Science at Warwick Business School, and roving reporter Timandra Harkness.

Contributors this week include Prof. Jennifer Lerner, Harvard University; Historian Lucy Robinson, University of Sussex; and Prof. Peter Johansson, Lund University, Sweden.

Producer: Dom Byrne

2/8. Shortcuts to the Simple Life
Tue 21 June 2016, 15:30

In this episode, we explore success and failure, and how easily we attribute acclaim or the blame. Too easily? For example, football managers - we can expect a few casualties during Euro 2016, but is the failure of a team one man's fault? At the same time, the boss of the eventual cup-winner is lauded as a genius. Surely it's more complicated than that?

The Human Zoo team investigate how we tend to oversimplify our complex world - unconsciously - because we are cognitively lazy. We take shortcuts to come to easy answers about everything from which politicians we trust, to evidence for climate change, to star performers on Wall Street. What weird behaviour. Why do we do it?

Michael Blastland is joined by resident Zoo psychologist Nick Chater, Professor of Behavioural Science at Warwick Business School, and roving reporter Timandra Harkness.

Contributors this week include Professor Jerker Denrell, University of Warwick; Dr Stian Reimers, City University London; Tracey Brown, Sense About Science; and Ed Smith, former England cricketer.

Producer: Dom Byrne

3/8. That Post-Referendum Feeling
Tue 28 June 2016, 15:30

In this episode, that morning-after feeling-- the aftermath of the EU referendum. We put our 'X' in a box and, one way or the other, committed. What happened in that moment and what are the consequences? Are we different now?

Do we have doubts or regrets, or will we stubbornly stick to our decision? The Zoo team investigate the curious psychology of being consistent and how we make ourselves feel better about the decisions we make in life.

Michael Blastland is joined by resident Zoo psychologist Nick Chater, Professor of Behavioural Science at Warwick Business School, and roving reporter Timandra Harkness.

Contributors this week include Professor Ralph Hertwig, Max Planck Institute for Human Development, Berlin; Professor Greg Maio, Cardiff University; Carol Tavris, social psychologist and author; Lee Jones, Queen Mary University of London and Lois Pryce, travel writer and journalist.

Producer: Dom Byrne

4/8. Trust me... I'm an expert
Tue 5 July 2016, 15:30

In this week's programme, a question of trust - why do people have a tendency to distrust experts and expertise? It has been made much of in the UK's Brexit campaign to leave the European Union. 'People in this country have had enough of experts,' claimed Leave campaigner Michael Gove. What's behind this lack of faith in authority?

The Zoo team discover that the difficulty of evaluating expertise is a problem we all face - because to really understand what's going on, you have to know what you don't know, and it's easier to spot the flaws in other people's reasoning and knowledge than to see it in ourselves. But then forecasting is a tricky business, and the experts don't always get it right. So, who to trust?

Michael Blastland is joined by resident Human Zoo psychologist Nick Chater, Professor of Behavioural Science at Warwick Business School, and roving reporter Timandra Harkness.

Guests this week include David Dunning, professor of psychology at the University of Michigan; Professor Barbara Mellers from the University of Pennsylvania; journalist turned teacher Steve McCormack; and Olympic silver medalist and two-time world champion rower Annie Vernon.

Producer: Eve Streeter


5/8. Democracy and the Wisdom of Crowds
Tue 12 July 2016, 15:30

At a time when questions are being asked of democracy, and how Donald Trump continues to rise in the US, the Human Zoo team investigates the so-called wisdom of crowds - the idea that collective judgments lead to the right solution.

Sometimes, how we learn from one another results in human progress. Elsewhere, our tendency to copy each other's behaviour has irrational outcomes.

When does the herd get it right and wrong? How do we know when the crowd is leading us in the right direction?

Michael Blastland is joined by resident Human Zoo psychologist Nick Chater, Professor of Behavioural Science at Warwick Business School, and roving reporter Timandra Harkness.

Contributors this week include Yale economist Robert Shiller, science writer Philip Ball, Alex Mesoudi from the University of Exeter and author Steven Poole.

Producer: Eve Streeter

6/8. Disruption
Tue 19 July 2016, 15:30

Cancelled trains or political and economic turmoil - when things happen beyond our control, how do we react psychologically? Not well, usually.

We don't like uncertainty. We tend to avoid a change to the status quo, almost at all cost. But are there cases when a bit of disruption has benefits? The Human Zoo team explores everything from displaced German towns and lateral problem-solving to comedy improvisation and music composition.

Michael Blastland is joined by resident Zoo psychologist Nick Chater, Professor of Behavioural Science at Warwick Business School, and roving reporter Timandra Harkness.

Contributors this week include behavioural scientist Dr Stian Reimers, City University London; broadcaster Nicholas Parsons; psychologist Prof Thomas Ormerod; members of Spontaneity Shop, comedy improvisation company; and broadcaster and journalist, Tim Harford.

Producer: Dom Byrne

7/8. News of an Atrocity: The Psychology of Rare Events
Tue 26 July 2016, 15:30

Why do we tend to be more attuned to the dangers posed by rare, exceptional events, such as acts of terrorism, than we are to more everyday threats such as car crashes, which are a more immediate and real risk?

People are continually alert to the odd - we have a better memory for things that seem different from others. We will pay more attention to strange events than equally bad normal events. So the more used we become to a 'bad thing', the less we are unsettled by it. Which might mean that the impact of terrorism is diminished the more common it becomes.

But there is something else. Strange events suggest our view of the world is wrong - that the world makes less sense than we thought, and perhaps is more malevolent or unjust. And a feeling that we can make sense of the world and our own lives within it can be very important for our well-being.

Michael Blastland is joined by resident Human Zoo psychologist Nick Chater, Professor of Behavioural Science at Warwick Business School, and roving reporter Timandra Harkness.

Producer: Eve Streeter

8/8. The Olympics: Why We're Hardwired To Watch
Tue 2 August 2016, 15:30

In this programme, the Zoo team are watching people, who are watching people, who are often as not going round in circles. And trying to work out what it is in the mind that makes that so compelling.

It's time for the Olympics, and we're investigating the psychology of being a sports spectator. Even if you're not watching the Rio Games, you might be curious why so many do.

Is it an animal impulse to display and enjoy watching physical skills? An instinct to compete, to tell stories? Are we drawn to the drama of the spectacle, the unknown result? Or is it a vicarious pleasure, imagining yourself at the starting block?

Michael Blastland is joined by resident Zoo psychologist Nick Chater, Professor of Behavioural Science at Warwick Business School and roving reporter Timandra Harkness.

Guests this week include sports commentator Alison Mitchell, former sports reporter Lynne Truss, Daniel Glaser from King's College London, philosopher George Papineau, and motorsport presenter Gareth Jones.

Producer: Eve Streeter
 

Indian Summer

Cult Leader
Administrator
^^ The majority's vote to leave the EU couldn't possibly be a rational choice, so we must psychoanalyse it to explain why they really voted as they did. Good stuff.
 

Joe

Celebrity Member
^^ The majority's vote to leave the EU couldn't possibly be a rational choice, so we must psychoanalyse it to explain why they really voted as they did. Good stuff.
Were you able to find the programs?

They try to examine the psychology of both sides of the debate.
 
I have been listening to a lot of political debate about how the left is divided. I thought it was primarily to do with the difference between the north and the south regarding economic wealth and assets, but I think the Brexit vote has shown that it is far more than that. I think it is to do with cultural values as well. Traditional Labour Leave voters tend to be more socially conservative and Remain Labour voters tend to be more socially liberal and more accepting of immigration and globalisation. There seems to be a gulf between younger and older people too, and a divide between people who live in metropolitan areas compared to people living in other areas.UK Polling Report I'm wondering what will happen in the by-elections on Thursday.

It's strange as I thought I was more left-wing than I am, the whole Brexit debate and the Labour party being in a shambles has made me realise that I am more centrist in my views.

Jeremy Corbyn is unpopular among every demographic group - with favourability ratings almost as low as Trump and Putin
 
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